Interview with Dr. Liann Osborne

Callie Frye, Daily Moth Reporter: Hi, thank you for your time and letting me interview you. For those who may not know you, can you tell us a little more about yourself?

Dr. Liann Osborne: Sure. Hi, I’m Liann Osborne, and I’m the current CTE Principal and the first Black Deaf administrator at California School for the Deaf, Fremont. That’s why I enjoy working there, because they’re in a progressive direction where they realize that the school has a history of oppressing students of color. They’re now more alert and aware. It’s just nice to have that support system.

[Photo of Dr. Liann Osborne, CTE Principal on the left side of the screen and a photo of California School for the Deaf on the right side.]

Callie Frye: I remember the first time I met you a few years ago, when you provided a workshop focused on Black Deaf students. You explained your experience, and that makes me wonder - what makes you invest in Black Deaf students?

Dr. Liann Osborne: I have a beautiful story. I don’t know if he remembers, but Ritchie Bryant came to one of my workshops where I gave a presentation about working with Black Deaf students and clients. After that, he got up and raised his hand, and in a very kind but direct way, said “Good presentation. Good workshop. But you are assuming that Black Deaf students have language access like you. That’s not true.” That got me, and from there, I started to think more about it and realize that’s what makes sense - to look back at what didn’t work in the past and what didn’t pan out. I realized they didn’t have the skills and tools to handle and cope with what was happening at home. For example, there was a young man who didn’t understand what happened when the police arrested his father. No one explained to him what happened. He assumed his father was a bad person and that he did something wrong. That was not true. He was in a place where he shouldn’t have been and he didn’t know. He was new to that environment, and got arrested because the police assumed he was a gang member when he had just moved from another state. So, his son grew up thinking his father was a bad person so he refused to have a relationship with him. His mom tried to explain it wasn’t his father’s fault, but he thought she was making excuses for his dad. He thought his dad did something wrong, because the police came and arrested him. His mom tried to explain, but was not capable of explaining how systemic racism affected his father because he’s Black. He was in the wrong place, and an assumption was made. So, he was seen as guilty even though there hadn’t been a trial, nothing. The police determined he was guilty. In that young man’s view, they were right. It took years and years to remove the damage of his view of his father. That hit me hard. I was so disgusted about how I presented my counseling support with students. I was like, “You know, you have to learn to let go of some things”, when I should have said “You know what just happened wasn’t true”, because he already had that assumption and others shouldn’t have made that decision for you. I should have shifted to that focus, so I appreciated that direct feedback. That woke me up, and I decided to shift my job towards a career in education where I work with young kids up to their senior year. As long as they have the tools, I’m good.

Callie Frye: Before, you were a school counselor, and then you shifted to…

Dr. Liann Osborne: I was not a school counselor. I worked in the mental health field and was a vocational rehabilitation counselor, in two fields. That’s where I saw many severe issues with systemic oppression, with clients not understanding the severity of how their daily lives had been impacted. Some would feel tired, and I’d say you are tired because of microaggressions. You’re not just tired because of a lack of sleep. No.

Callie Frye: Can you explain your passions? Why are you passionate about anti-Blackness? And why is it important to recognize the white centering in our everyday lives?

Dr. Liann Osborne: I’ll give you an example. Let’s say I arrive at school, ready for work. But I have thoughts in the back of my mind, like the fear that police will pull me over on my way to work. That worry and stress, and road rage… like people cussing me out because I’m Black. A lot of insecurity. When I arrive to work, am I ready to work? No. That white center really drains my energy, and often that white rage in your face feels… Wow. It’s powerful enough to be that angry just because I’m Black. I can’t help but wonder about that. And I always wonder if I’m going to go back home safe. I worry about that. So, that white centering concept helps me figure out which town to not go to and be careful about it, or I carpool with friends who I feel safe with. I’m aware of where the very white areas are. Even though they say they’re liberals, they’re usually the worst, unfortunately. They’ll say “Oh, I’m very liberal and I support you”, until you ask them to remove their white privilege. Then, oh, it’s a problem. “I’ll support you in that specific area, that’s it,” but they don’t want to give up on other areas. I don’t think so. So, that’s where I’m like… You need to let go of it because you practice anti-Blackness by removing our narratives, our history, and our voice. It’s like we don’t exist in your world. You can’t do that. Any decision you make within your family will impact us, whether you think it will or not. You might think “Oh, it’s just my family,” but if you don’t talk about race and racism, how do you expect your child to go out in the world and be able to show support? Do you understand? You have white privilege. Do you know how to use it? Do you know how to stand up? There are a lot of questions. Many people might think it’s not a big deal and they can learn later, but no. You need to start now when they’re babies, and teach them that diversity is beautiful. Learn from each other. Acknowledge white privilege is alive, and the white centering is very much real. And it becomes very exhausting when you assume. I have to cater to your needs, and if I make you uncomfortable, “How dare you? My god. I’m not comfortable.” Even though I’ve not been comfortable for 400 years with my ancestors. We have not been comfortable, either. Now it’s your turn, you know? That’s why I think it’s important for my students to know what anti-Blackness means and what that looks like in class. Maybe it’s not included. Black Deaf people have an important contribution to society. Often we hear that our ancestors were slaves. What they fail to mention is that before white people stole us, we had scientists, mathematicians, carpenters, and many more. Why don’t we hear that? We hear about slaves being brought here on boats and being whipped, but we’ve contributed so much more from before that. I always ask my Black Deaf students, “Why do you think they’re scared of us?” Because we have that Black magic! We have so much to offer. That makes kids’ eyes brighten up. Yes, true! Believe in yourself because no one else will. You have to internalize that, and don’t believe whatever they try to diminish who you are. You are beautiful Black children, period.

Callie Frye: Wow, powerful response. And inspiring. I think you’re right. All you said is right.

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Now, with all your work in the education field, what can school leaders and instructors do to approach this and implement tools into students of color? Do you have any advice, tips, or ideas?

Dr. Liann Osborne: For sure. For sure. You know bell hooks? There’s a book called “Teaching to Transgress”.

[Two photos appear on the screen. On the left side of the screen is a photo of bell hooks smiling. The right side of the screen shows a photo of the book “Teaching to Transgress: Education as the Practice of Freedom” by bell hooks, with a photo of a ladder and the words “la escalera”.]

Dr. Liann Osborne: In an excerpt, she explained her experience before being integrated with white students. She said that before that, she had Black teachers and a Black principal who really put their heart into making sure the students were prepared for politics and advocacy, and making sure they understood their Black culture and who they are. And they used a counter-hegemonic approach, like for example, you might notice mistreatment because of Blackness. They have the tools to step in and say that’s wrong, and explain why. When you have the language to call them out, that will impact people more than if you don’t have the words to explain it and simply explain that you don’t appreciate their actions. That’s watered down. But if you call them out, and say that they really have made you feel pulled into whiteness just because they’re not willing to work with us… They are not willing to step out of their whiteness and come into our world. You might dip your feet and say you’re good, but to really dive into that world and understand their soul… No. That’s what bell hooks said, and that impacted me deeply. I just love her. That’s how I want to support my Black Deaf students. I want more teachers like that, regardless of your race and ethnicity. I want them to really love your Black and Brown students, and students of color. They deserve good teachers who are really passionate about them and want to take action. Yes, there are state standards, but let me integrate some knowledge. What’s missing in the curriculum? Ok. Let me include that. Talk with their families. Tell me about your cultures. Are you teaching your child about them? Some families say they don’t have the time because they work two, three, four jobs. That doesn’t mean these parents hate their kids, no, they just don’t have time. Now, where do we step in without stepping on their families’ right to teach their child? But do we wait and hope they find free time to do that? Maybe they’d rather spend time with their children rather than teach them. So… It’s a catch-22. That’s where I want more school leaders and educators who really have a heart in this and want to invest in supporting our Black Deaf students, and to really have that Black excellence where they feel great and can float with their magic from class to class! They deserve to feel that their teachers really value them. You know, sometimes when we go into a classroom, we can feel that the teacher doesn’t really value me. You feel it. You just have that intrinsic sense. You know when someone is just tolerating you. Kids are not stupid. They know.

Callie Frye: That’s key. We can feel that, you’re right.

Dr. Liann Osborne: Exactly!

Callie Frye: I remember that in your workshop, you explained something that perfectly applies to your recent answer. You said that one time a Black Deaf student - the teacher gave the students an assignment to draw a flower. That Black Deaf student did not even draw anything. The teacher later found out by going to that student’s home that there were no flowers, because he lived in the projects. Everything was concrete with no flowers around. With what you said, I understand that. Teachers need to be involved with their families and understand more…

Dr. Liann Osborne: Exactly. And often they will assign projects where they might be put in danger, like running two miles. That might be seen as a simple feat to some, but if I run while Black… What happens? You have to think about this in projects, about the possible consequences. You have to figure that out. If you know it might not be the best fit, then find another project somehow. Be mindful of students’ home lives. Some might live in gang-infested areas, and you expect them to run? No. You expect them to film themselves for a movie or digital media project? No. People might think they’re using gang signs. There are all these little things that we might not realize. It really takes the art of thinking about the little nuances of possible harm or damage just based on the projects we give out.

Callie Frye: That’s exactly what you had said about why we should think it’s important to recognize the white center in our everyday lives. Teachers assume that students live in their whiteness.

-Right.

They assume they live in a society of whiteness. But there’s diversity in there, and we have to step into their worlds. It’s not about “me” and “my” world. Wow. Do you have any additions before we wrap up?

Dr. Liann Osborne: All I can say to many Black Deaf students out there that I haven’t met is that I value you. If someone else tells you otherwise, don’t believe them. You have what it takes to thrive. You are probably already thriving. Remember that.

Callie Frye: I love your responses! They’re amazing. Thank you for your time.

Dr. Liann Osborne: Thank you. I’m honored. Thank you.