Interview with Douglas Ridloff and Toj Mora on “Echo”

Alex (Daily Moth): The “Echo” series from Marvel has a lot of ASL in it. The titular role is Deaf and all the major supporting actors sign ASL with varying skills. For me, it’s one of the main reasons why the show is entertaining.

I had the honor of interviewing two of the Deaf professionals who worked behind the scenes. They had an impact on the production and its portrayal of ASL. Douglas Ridloff and Toj Mora.

Douglas was the consulting producer and ASL master.

Douglas Ridloff: My role was there from the start, during pre-production, production, and post-production. I was there for all of it. I was involved with the casting process. I read scripts to understand the story as it applies to each character who signs. I understood their back stories. I also sat down with the characters, the actors who used ASL, one by one, including Alaqua (Cox). I worked with both Deaf and hearing people. I worked with them individually during pre-production. On the set, during production, which took about six months, during shooting, I had to be there every day on the set.

[Images showing Douglas on a production set working with videographers]

Douglas: I sat down and viewed the monitor with the director and script supervisor to watch out for mistakes on the first take or the second take. I would notify them. If it’s perfect and I like it, I’ll tell them which take I liked the best. Also when I see a mistake, I will walk on the set to consult and make sure their signs are right. I also worked on the chemistry between actors. So that’s some of my tasks.

Alex: Toj was the second assistant editor and the only Deaf person on the post-production team.

Toj Mora: My role was – I was brought on as a Deaf editor expert in that field. They don’t know how to edit ASL. They don’t know how to edit with Deaf people’s perspective and framing. Things like that. My role is to come in and support the editing team. I was brought in a bit later in the process. Typically, (editors) should be there earlier. Because on a TV show, they will start editing the same week they start filming. I joined the team during the last week of filming. They already edited a lot by then. So I had to go back a bit and go through all the episodes they have and try to find points where they could improve or a wrong take. There were many little things. Like when the captions didn’t match with what the actor was saying because sometimes the actor will change the lines a bit. Or the performance would be a little different. I could give a lot of notes.

Alex: Douglas will explain some of the processes he used to visualize characters’ specific signing.

Douglas: I visualized their back stories and why they know sign language. Why should they remember it, especially after 20 years of no signing? How close are they? The role of Uncle Henry lived in New York for a while. So he grew up with his brother, he’s the uncle, around Maya’s father. So they were together there and I figured out Henry would be comfortable and fresh with his signs. For Biscuit, he had a nervous manner of signing. It matches with his style and how he sim-coms. Some don’t, they turn off their voice. So I designed each character and what fit them to make sense and look authentic to their characters.

Alex: Toj will explain one important part of his editing work.

Toj: There is a word called continuity. It means, like, if you switch from one camera to using another with a different angle, you need to make sure the actor’s shoulders match in posture. Or whatever. I’m trying to think of an example. In ASL, continuity means you make sure the signs match. So if I say, “Hello, I love your show. It’s champ.” If the camera angle changes, the person may be signing something different, with more emphasis on “love your show.” This sign is hard. So if I was signing softer but the new angle has a hard sign, that looks strange. It’s jarring for Deaf eyes. So I make sure that it matches closely enough where I don’t notice. Of course, with hearing people who don’t sign every day, they don’t know whether it’s too much or not enough.

Alex: One of the episodes had the character of Kingpin, the villain, using a unique technological device to sign out holograms. Douglas will explain what he did behind the scenes.

Douglas: At first, we were discussing how to make Kingpin use his technology. He didn’t learn sign language. He didn’t want to learn and would hire interpreters. But he decided not to hire interpreters as he wanted to use advanced technology, we wanted to make it “imperfect” for Deaf people. It’s like when you’re given something supposedly nice but it’s offensive. The concept is cool, but it’s not the right kind of technology. The fake arms. We agreed that it was the right idea for the show. I used long blue gloves for the green screen behind me. The blue gloves contrasted with the green screen.

[Images of Douglas in a film set, wearing blue gloves, in front of a large green screen and green floor.]

Douglas: I signed out the lines with the gloves. I tried to make it look like artificial intelligence ASL. Very clean and very proper. Uniform with natural signing. So after signing, we tested how it looked post-production. It looked great and we adjusted it to create what you saw, the eye contact and the hologram signing.

Alex: That is cool.

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Alex: Toj will explain why it’s beneficial to have a Deaf person in the editing room.

Toj: I always say that many large production companies don’t realize that it’s cheaper to hire a Deaf professional in that role compared to trying to bring in a Deaf consultant who will sit down and constantly consult all the way. Versus a Deaf editor who already knows how to access editing software, knows and understands how other editors think, and there’s many terms that’s used in the editing world. So it helps a lot to have that experience, that background.

Alex: Douglas will share a memory he treasures.

Douglas: I felt very honored to be involved in this project because there were two groups of minorities working together, combined with hearing and white people who were in certain positions. It gave us an opportunity to share our voices together. The Indigenous people were strong and the Deaf group as well. And we worked together, in collaboration, in harmony to make it work for both. Especially with Alaqua as the lead star. We made it work in a safe space for all of us. We were in unity and it was beautiful. It takes that big group to achieve and the show shows that. It was an achievement.

Alex: Thank you Douglas and Toj so much for explaining some of what goes behind the scenes and an idea of what it takes to have a successful show with a lot of ASL in it. If you want to watch “Echo,” it is available on Disney+ and Hulu.